Pope Francis: The People’s Pope

Pope Francis: The People’s Pope

Interview by Christopher Buck

Jorge Mario Bergoglio, Pope Francis, the most revolutionary and controversial character of our contemporary world; he is noted for his humility, his concern for the poor, and his commitment to interfaith dialogue. He is known for having a humble approach to the papacy, less formal than his predecessors, for instance, choosing to reside in the Domus Sanctae Marthae guesthouse rather than the papal apartments of the Apostolic Palace used by his predecessors. Pope Francis made the battle against global warming, consumerism, and irresponsible development a focus of his papacy with the publication of Laudato si‘. The media considers him a progressive papal reformer, with a less doctrinal tone of papacy.

Pope Francis is the first Jesuit pope. This was an unexpected appointment because of the tense relations between the Society of Jesus and the Holy See. He is also the first from the Americas and the first from the Southern Hemisphere. Many media reported him as being the first non-European pope, but he is actually the 11th. The previous one was Gregory III in 741, 1,272 years earlier. However, although he does not have a European nationality, he has a European ethnicity.

Among many other initiatives, Pope Francis is recognized for his efforts “to further close the nearly 1,000-year estrangement with the Orthodox Churches”.

Interview with Father Michael Collins, Official Biographer of Pope Francis

OMTimes Magazine is absolutely thrilled to be part of the roll out of Pope Francis: A Photographic Portrait of the People’s Pope. We gladly share this exciting interview with the Biographer, Father Michael Collins, and Christopher Buck, the Publisher of OMTimes Magazine.

Christopher Buck: Father Collins, thank you for speaking with us today. I would like to express my gratitude for the incredible honor to be part of the media rollout for this amazing book, Pope Francis: A Photographic Portrait of the People’s Pope.

To be in your position as the official biographer of Pope Francis, to be personally witnessing the emergence of one of the greatest transformational leaders of our age, must be an incredible experience.

Father Collins: Well, yes, it’s very interesting because I recall two years ago, just about 28, 29 months ago, I was actually in St. Peter’s Square the evening of the end of the conclave, and the bells were ringing, and the smoke was going up from the Sistine Chapel. And people from all over the world, I believe 10 million Americans alone, were glued to the television watching this.

And I recall, when the cardinal came out onto the balcony and said, we’ve elected, we’ve succeeded and elected a new Pope, and his name is Jorge Mario Bergoglio, I was thinking, I’ve never heard of him. And even though I’d heard his name mentioned, he wasn’t, for me, one of the top frontrunners.

In fact, it was very funny because an Italian bishop of Milan, Cardinal Scola, and the Italians were so convinced he was going to become Pope that the guy who’s in charge of the press office hit the fax button by accident and sent, on behalf of all the bishops of Italy, their congratulations on the election of Cardinal Scola as Pope. Of course, they were wrong. They got it wrong.

But, they were half right because the new Pope was half Italian, so I guess you could forgive them for that one.

Christopher Buck: That’s quite a story. Did Pope Francis take his name from St. Francis of Assisi or St. Francis Xavier, who was the cofounder of the Jesuits?

Father Collins: Okay. So, a few days after he was elected, he explained when he met some journalists, he said, you’ve been wondering where I got the name, and he said, well, really, I took the name after St. Francis of Assisi, the poor man, because I really believe at this moment, the church is called to be a great witness for people in the periphery and on the margins of society. So, he made it very simple, I felt.

But, subsequently, somebody made a point to me while chatting a few days ago, and I felt that it’s so true. No Pope since St. Francis of Assisi had ever changed him name to Francis, and this man is the first one whose had the, I suppose, the foresight to say, look, by taking a totally new name instead of Gregory the 17 or Clement the 19, or whatever, you know, he goes for Francis, and hopefully, he’ll be Francis the 1st and there’ll be other Francis’, because I think all Christians, and indeed all people of good will who know anything about the life of this extraordinary man from Umbria in Italy in the 13th Century. He’s a young man, a soldier who was–came from a wealthy family. He rejected his father’s wealth, and he literally went off to become a wondering evangelist for the Christian faith and spent his time literally wondering around with a group of other brothers who became known as friars, talking about Christianity in the marketplace.

He didn’t want to go into the churches. He wanted to be out at the market squares where people were. And that I think also is a key to understanding Pope Francis, because he doesn’t want to be stuck in the church where nobody is going to come. He wants to be out there.

In fact, an interesting story he told one day, he said, I wonder about the churches. Are we doing the right thing? He said, sometimes, people want everybody to come into the church and carry on the way we used to do things, but he said, times have changed. And he said, nowadays, it makes more sense for us to rent a garage somewhere, set up a little chapel which is near the people so that they have far to come, and they just walk across the street, and come to their new little church which is in their neighborhood.

I think, that kind of lateral thinking, that thinking outside the box is what’s making him so attractive to people who–in particular Catholics, who would probably have seen popes in the recent past as being a little bit–well, I don’t think it’s fair to say removed because they weren’t, but they were certainly distanced. There was a separation between the popes and the people, whereas this man, you saw him in Latin America a few days ago, he went into the slums, he got his black boots all covered with mud when he went in because he went off the red carpet because the people don’t live on red carpet in the slums. He went over and he shook hands, and he was meeting people, and they were all speaking his native Spanish, and they were speaking dialect.

So, it was just wonderful, and the TV coverage was amazing of that, because who would have imagined five or ten years ago a Pope choosing a slum as his first place to visit instead of going to the President’s palace?

Christopher Buck: I think that’s absolutely fabulous.

Father Collins: Yeah, he’s turning things on its head because–you know, another thing, he’s–I bet Ford cars are very happy with him because he’s picked up driving Mercedes as previous popes drove, and he’s now going around in a Ford Focus, and–he has. It’s the hatchback. It’s the same one as I have. I don’t know if he’s a Zeta or–well, he’s not Fiesta. I’ve seen the car, I’ve seen him in it a few times, and he just zips around, he sits in the back, or sometimes he sits up with the driver, because he’s apparently not much of a driver himself, so I think they kind of said, well, look, you can go in a simple car, ride in a simple car, but we’re going to get somebody to drive you.

And, you know, he’s much uncomplicated. He lives a relatively simple life, even though the Vatican is, you know, full of treasures and architectural and artistic beauty. But, you know, he’s trying to do his best within the grounds that he finds himself living in.

Christopher Buck: He is breaking all sorts of new ground. He’s the first Jesuit Pope, and he’s the first South American, and these, I’m sure, are part of the bedrock on which he is standing and operating from.

Father Collins: Exactly, yes. I think that’s very true. First of all, being a Jesuit – so, he comes from a religious order. He’s not a priest who’d been out in parish work. He’d actually been teaching for quite a long time, so he had quite a good idea of the psychology of young people. And I think that’s also one of the way he clicks in with the younger generation so easily.

And then the other thing I think is so important is, as you say, he’s the first Pope from the New World, he’s the first Pope from the Americas. He understands very much the fact that 40 percent of Catholicism now is found in Latin America, and he’s very tuned into that.

The church is a funny kind of institution, because although it’s global and worldwide and split into different factions like Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Evangelical, Episcopalian, etc., it’s a little bit like an air bed. It goes down on one side and then goes up on the other. So, in Europe, it is very strong. Now Europe is going right down, and in America–I should say in both North and South America– the numbers are rising. So, it’s kind of interesting.

And the other thing I think is also worthy of comment is the fact that the Pope isn’t interested in making converts into the Catholic faith. He’s often said, God isn’t a Catholic God. God is God, and if we try to put God in a box or a religious denomination box, we’re actually limiting God. So, he said, you know, we don’t have the answer to everything.

And to me, it is personally very refreshing to hear a Pope speaking with such frankness and also changing the optics a little bit, as well.

Christopher Buck: He’s truly admirable; one of our outreaches is our page on Facebook, and there’s not a single day that goes by that we don’t see a picture of the Pope and one of his quotes, and we’re just like, “My God, we love this Pope.”

Father Collins: Yeah, yeah.

Christopher Buck: The Jesuits themselves are known to be active doers. They’re the hands in the garden, helping those in need. My wife, Liane, who is the cofounder of Humanity Healing International, when she was just out of college, living in Brazil, she worked with the Jesuits creating community actions to raise the standards of living in poor communities.

Do you think this background of being a Jesuit is what makes Pope Francis so impassioned about economic inequality? And do you think he’s launched a Holy War, if you pardon the expression, against economic inequality?

Father Collins: Yes, I think that’s very true. I think you’ve probably put your finger on a very important point. Because he’s a Jesuit – you know, we [the others] work in parishes. We all say that the Jesuits are the really intelligent guys.

They are–we always joke, they say they need about 14 years to get through training college. That’s also true, but the reason is because they learn a lot. They become experts in their fields. Nearly all of them would hold a doctorate.

So, they are kind of the intellectual elite of the church, put it that way, while the rest of us are in the fields getting on with more mundane, probably not as interesting work.

So, I think you’re right. He’s also got a great world order to tap into because he was a leader of the – -he was a provincial leader of the Jesuits in Argentina. And he had a great knowledge of the Jesuits in Latin America, and indeed, throughout the world.

So, now he’s got a body of around 18,000 people that he can tap into and say, look, I need information on this, that or the other. One of the things you’ve probably seen more recently he’s started off doing, he wrote a document on climate change.

Christopher Buck: Yes. Laudato Si’.

Father Collins: The Pope has people who are expert in this and he said, look, give me both sides of the argument. I’m not going to write the whole thing myself, but I need people to write different parts of it, and then I’ll pull it all together, I’ll get a team around me, and then I’ll put my name to it at the end so this is our way of looking at things.

And as a result, that document has become -it’s crazy. In Ireland, it’s become a number one bestseller in paperback. Now, I know it’s available in a few pages on the internet, but people are actually going out and buying a document by the Pope. Now, that’s never happened, certainly in Ireland. I don’t know about the States.

And that’s why even the book that I was working on – I’d written one book for Liturgical Press in Collegeville, Minnesota, and that’s a short 140 pages book on the Pope from his election – well, it’s actually his life story right on to his election and then through to the first two years. But then I realized that when Dorling Kindersley gave me the opportunity to write another book, it had to be a picture book, and we had to do something because a picture speaks a thousand words, as they say.

So, what we’ve done is to try and get all these angles and see Pope Francis in all the various different stages of the day, he’s meeting people, etc. One of the pictures we found it quite difficult to get was to get him in his study, talking to some colleagues, tackling some of these issues, and trying to work on some of the things that he’s interested in.

And another thing that he’s very passionate about is, I had mentioned on another occasion, human trafficking. That’s something which he’s really, really rolled up his sleeves about because he’s aware now that he’s a world leader. Okay, he doesn’t tour the country, but he has the kind of moral authority among a lot of Catholics, and indeed, other people of goodwill. And he wants to address two projects which have become very close to his heart – issues and problem with migration – his own father was a migrant from Italy in the 1920s – and also this whole phenomenon of human trafficking, which is worth I think something like $36 billion per annum, and which is run by pirates, by unscrupulous mafia people. They’re kidnapping kids, they’re using them for organ donation, they’re selling them into the sex trade, they’re sending them down mines to pull up minerals, all these types of things.

So, last year, last November, he got a group of police officers–well, police intelligence officers, I should say, throughout the world, to come to the Vatican and take part in a think tank, and it was a sudden success. And the lady who was in charge of it, she said, you know, we thought we were just going to have another boring meeting that we have four times a year, and this thing is explosive.

He followed that up in July, meeting with the mayors of the main cities in the world, which are really destroyed by human trafficking. And then, in November of this year, 2015, he intends to invite some IT specialists, in fact, a lot of them coming from the United States. And obviously, you would probably be able to guess the names. I couldn’t say them, but you’ll be able to guess the names of these big IT people who are going to come to the Vatican, and they’re going to put their heads together and work out what way using the internet they can actually trick these mafia, trick these people around and try and break up this industry, because it is really an industry of $36 billion a year, to break it up and then restore people’s freedom.

And that’s why – you can do that on the ground as one thing. But, also, you need the ethics, the morality of it. And somebody like Pope Francis is able to speak so well and so eloquently because he doesn’t just talk about doing good, but he actually puts good into practice, which is really impressive.

Christopher Buck: He does. We are such huge fans of Pope Francis. The man has been, pardon the expression, a Godsend for so many issues and problems that the world is facing today. And it’s such a blessing to be able to speak to you about this man that we so respect and admire.

I’ve got one more question about his background in South America, and that is, what is Pope Francis’ position on the Theology of Liberation?

Father Collins: Oh, that’s very interesting. Now, the Theology of Liberation, really, I suppose, in a nutshell, is an understanding that the bond theology kind of empowers people to get themselves out of their own problems. So, you don’t wait for somebody to come in and solve your issues, you do it yourself.

And in the 1970s, ’80s, there was a lot of kind of mixing that up with communism. And Pope John Paul was very nervous about that. He wasn’t happy with this development of Liberation Theology at first, although he changed his mind. In the second half of his life, he said, Well, you know, I can see.

Francis is very, very keen on it, and he would see the theology of liberation – I hope I can speak for him – as really a liberation from evil institutions, which have to be broken. So, in that sense, I think liberation theology itself has actually developed and grown and matured over the last 30 or 40 years to being something which is a really good contribution to society.

Christopher Buck: I know my wife Liane will be very interested and excited to hear that because she was a student of Liberation Theology when she was working with the Jesuits in Brazil.

The Pope has been in Central America recently, and he’s made news for his apologies for actions and crimes against the indigenous people of the Americas during the colonial period. Is this apology just a balm to help the healing of the people, or does Pope Francis plan an increase in the Catholic church’s outreaches to help empower indigenous people who are often still disenfranchised?

Father Collins: Well, I suppose–I imagine, yes, that he wants to continue working in this area. As I said earlier, I think he’s very intuitive. He’s traveled a good deal within Latin America, although before his election, he didn’t travel a lot outside Latin America. So, he’s got a really good finger and feel of the post.

But, it does bring you to another interesting point, and that is that not everybody is a fan of Pope Francis. There would be many people who’d say he’s going far too far and far too quickly in the direction that he wants to go. And a lot of people will be quite nervous about that and say, well, look, indigenous people, we’re working on the ground, and why does the Pope need to get involved in something which is so local?

And that’s true. When he went to Latin America a few days ago, he had that issue. A lot of the local groups in Bolivia and Paraguay, they wanted to get him involved in local wars, if you like, or local issues. He can’t do that. You know, he can’t get involved in local politics. So, he has to try to rise above that.

But, yeah, you’re right. Something like the indigenous people and their rights is something that he’s going to take up a level and, you know, try and make the whole world aware of it.

Christopher Buck: You mentioned that not everybody likes Pope Francis’s activism. I know there’s been some grumblings with the American Council of Bishops that the Pope should stay out of politics. Of course, the American Council of Bishops is often embroiled in politics here in this country.

Father Collins: Well, yeah, I guess so. But, I suppose in a sense, many bishops would more or less say, well, the Pope can’t be expected to be an expert in every nation. So, therefore, look, let us deal with it, let the Pope just stay above it. Yeah, I can see a tension there, and I know that there are some American cardinals who’ve been pretty vociferous in their criticism of Pope Francis.

Christopher Buck: Well, the Pope is God’s vicar on earth, so I imagine he will win this argument at some point.

Father Collins: Well, yeah, although, you know, he’s funny. He’s realistic, as well. And he always says, when he hears somebody complaining, he says, well, that’s good, at least we’re talking. It’ll be worse if we weren’t talking.

So, yeah, I think one of the things about Jorge Bergoglio, he’s very, very, very pragmatic. You know, he knows the battles he can win, he knows the battles that he can’t start because he’s certainly losing. And I think he’s tailoring his energy – he’s 78 at the moment. He’ll be turning 79 in December.

I think he realizes he has a certain amount of energy that he’s got to husband, although he said to his press officer, you know, it’s funny, I have more energy now than I did two years ago, because he was due to retire from Argentina as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, he’s due – he’d just turned 75, gone to 76, he was due to finish off his job as Archbishop, and then suddenly he gets the top job in the church.

I think the funny thing is when somebody suddenly gets a new job, they get a second gust of energy. So, that seems to have happened with him.

Christopher Buck: Well, hopefully, he will be going strong for a long, long time.

Father Collins: It’s funny, Christopher, he himself said in St. Peter’s Square, it’s not a good idea for me to stay on forever, and Pope Benedict did the right thing by retiring and abdicating, and there’s no jobs which are for complete life any more in the church. We all have our terms, and we should get out while we’re able to.

I thought that’s something which were going to impact over the next few months, people are going to think about it a little bit more, because one of the difficulties and criticisms of the Catholic church in particular is that they leave their leadership, bishops, etc., cardinals, popes, in position too long. And in fact, many of them come to their jobs too old.

So, I think, you know, maybe in 10 or 20 or 40, 50 years’ time, we may be looking at something going in the American model where somebody is elected at a certain age for a term, maybe once renewable. So, that could be interesting. I have no idea. I’m only speculating, but maybe we’ll go to the American presidential idea.

And then, the other thing is maybe we won’t just have cardinals making the election, but we’ll have representative people from all over the world and nationalities. It’ll be a headache to do that, but, well, I was going to say maybe it’ll be better, but the cardinals drew the right choice this time as far as I can see.

Christopher Buck: I believe that also. When you speak about a general election and the like, is there a changing view towards the role of women in the Catholic Church?

Father Collins: Well, now, that’s a very, very interesting point and a good question. To be honest with you, I’d like to say yes, but in truth, I have to say no, because while there’s a lot of talk about this is what must be done, etc., I don’t see much movement.

And I think this is something that really needs to be taken either by Pope Francis or the next Pope and really brought forward, the whole role of women in the church, which I don’t mean to be facetious, but women are 50 percent or so of the human population. And certainly, within the administrative structures of the church, they are not up at the top. They’re very much either at the bottom or absolutely in the middle. I think that’s something which is hugely important and needs to be addressed urgently.

Christopher Buck: I agree. There’s also the question of the marriage of priests. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, priests can marry. And I understand, at one point, there was a group from an Episcopalian diocese that came over. And these priests were already married.

Father Collins: Correct, yes, yeah, true.

Christopher Buck: I believed they received dispensation to be able to stay married but be Catholic priests. Do you see the possibility, or has Francis spoken on allowing priests to marry?

Father Collins: Yes, he has, actually. Well, interestingly, first of all, you’re absolutely right that the Eastern Orthodox clergy will marry. But, also, the Catholic Eastern Orthodox churches can marry.

So, in fact, we could say that there already is in the Eastern part of Europe and also now in America since Pope Francis came along, some Catholic Eastern Orthodox clergy who marry. That’s one thing.

And then, Pope Benedict allowed clergy who converted to Catholicism to remain married and to exercise the ministry. So, he introduced that.

And Pope Francis, I’d say, is very keen on expanding that a little bit more. But, you know, he has to be careful because, as I mentioned before, even some of the cardinals are contesting against him quite loudly and in the open air. They’re not muttering behind his back.

He says he’s happy with that, and I take him at his word. I guess he is. But, at the same time, he has to be really careful that he doesn’t form in too much division, because if he doesn’t, it’ll all blow up in his face. So, I think he’s got to go slowly.

Christopher Buck: One of the criticisms that you hear of the Catholic Church is that it’s still rooted in the Middle Ages and hasn’t evolved on some issues. And so, it’s not only very refreshing, but important that Pope Francis has been addressing these things.

Father Collins: Certainly, yeah, it is, absolutely.

Christopher Buck: One of the things that recently came out was that the US Supreme Court ruled that gay marriage is now legal in the United States.

Father Collins: Uh-huh.

Christopher Buck: And Pope Francis made that famous quote that,” if they accept the Lord and have goodwill, who am I to judge them?”.

Father Collins: Sure.

Christopher Buck: Does the LGBT community have a champion in Pope Francis?

Father Collins: I would love to say yes and take credit for him, but I’m not sure because he is not into judgment. He’s only into trying to see what we have in common and how we can all get on together and march along hand in hand, arm in arm.

No, he’s got pretty straightforward ideas about the traditional definition of marriage between a man and a woman and having children. But, you know, the reality also is that the world is changing and the Christian response has to modulate, as well.

And there’s no point in just saying, in 50, 100 years’ time, when in many parts of the world marriage has been completely redefined, just saying, well, we’re just going to stick by our sacramental view. You know, we have to be very careful about that, as well.

So, I think Pope Francis will be very keen to make sure that all Christians feel comfortable, and, in particular, a minority group of gay people who, for many, many years, have suffered criminalization and horrendous abuse, even physical abuse, that would come to an end.

Christopher Buck: You can see that change in society here in the United States as recently as a few years ago. The public perception as far as legalized gay marriage has changed from the majority of people against that to the position that love is love, and God is love, and that therefore, how can God not sanction a union of two people who love each other.

Matthew Fox: Creation Spirituality

Father Collins: Exactly, exactly. And, yeah, and curiously, in Ireland, we had a referendum in May, and the referendum changed the definition of marriage in Ireland by 62 percent in favor. Okay, that still leaves 40 percent not in favor.

But, interestingly, I think most people were voting to end homophobia, which is rampant in our country. It’s not gone yet. But, I think that is one of the things.

Who’s to know that in maybe 50 or 100 years’ time we decide to define marriage all over again and we decide that it’s a good idea for a husband to have two wives or a wife to have two husbands or–you know, things could change again. So, it’ll be silly for us simply to say that this new definition of marriage between two members of the same gender is going to be the end because,in the future, it could all change once more, and we could have polyandry, all sorts of polygamy, all sorts of modulations and changes I think in the future.

So, okay, the church has this very clear view, and, as far as Jesus is concerned, iIt’s obvious that, in his view, that marriage is between man and woman, and that also brings along children. But, even with the artificial assisted reproduction, things have changed as well. Things have nobody could have guessed even 50 or 100 years ago.

So, I guess it’ll be very foolish for any of us to make definitive judgments about what’s going to happen in the future because we just don’t know. We’d be shooting in the dark

OMTIMES: If I had to pick one trait that I see in Pope Francis that he is imprinting upon the Catholic Church, Pope Francis is very much a man of inclusion.

Father Collins: Exactly, I agree. That–you’re right. That’s kind of a key quality in him, uh-huh.

OMTIMES: And this has rippled out everywhere. He’s been doing a lot of the outreaches as far as interfaith dialogue, and the Vatican recently recognized the Palestinian State, which, you know, has caused tensions in some circles. Do you see, or does he see, an active Vatican outreach being able to ease the suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza and ultimately bring peace to the region?

Father Collins: Yes, I think so. Last year, he invited the President of Israel and the President of the Palestinian Authority to come to the Vatican. It was following a trip that he’d made. And he said to them, you know, could–is there no way we can move forward, and the two of them did try and agree. They didn’t get very far, to be honest with you, because it seems at the moment to be an intractable problem.

However, the Holy See, from the time of Pope John Paul II, has been very much on the side of the Palestinian Authority because they see this as a minority people who are not getting all the chances that the majority in Israel are getting. But, that–it’s–I have to say that I’m not an expert in the area, so I’d be very foolish trying to impose my view onto what I think Pope Francis is doing. But, certainly, Pope Francis is following John Paul’s idea that the Palestinians are the little brother. They may be rebellious, they may be violent, etc., but they’re still ones who have less, whereas the residents of Israel have a bit more. And I think what they’ve been trying to do, say, look, both of you be generous, try and dialogue and talk and stop having these extreme views, because ultimately, we’re not going to make any progress on this dialogue.

Christopher Buck: I see Pope Francis taking the position of, this is our common ground, and looking outward to our differences to see how to resolve them as opposed to a more common method of standing in our differences and trying to figure out what the common ground is.

Father Collins: Yeah, it seems to be like that. And in actual fact, he was very friendly with an Argentine rabbi in Buenos Aires. And the two of them hosted a radio program every week, and in fact, they–his name was Rabbi Shorka. And they wrote a book together. In fact, they wrote two books together.

And, well, that’s really impressive to find a Catholic bishop and a Jewish rabbi speaking together weekly on the radio and also writing. And they’ve both become great friends, in fact, over the number of years. And Rabbi Shorka helped him organize the visit to Palestine and Israel, and as a returned gesture of thanks, Pope Francis invited them to his house in the Vatican, which is kind of a very simple, uncomplicated house. It looks like a much undecorated Holiday Inn, if you like.

And when the Jewish guests were coming, Pope Francis said to the kitchen staff, he said, you know what we’ve got to do, we’ve got to make this place really spotless. And of course, they thought that they meant just clean up the place. And he said, no, no, no, he said, they need kosher food and kosher kitchen and everything. So, he arranged for a Jewish firm to come into the Vatican, into his home and clean up the kitchen and install all the implements which would be needed so that the Jewish people could eat there.

And they all sat around with Pope Francis at the table and there’s about 70 of them in the room.

And so, all the Jewish friends were there. And I have some friends who work in the Vatican, and they said the atmosphere is so relaxed with him on the one hand, and yet on the other hand, security has had to be stepped up because he’s so careless of his security. He’s got people really working around the clock to keep him safe.

And some of the people who live with them in the – as I said, it’s kind of like a Holiday Inn without any pictures on the wall – they say that it’s so hard to get in and out to go do their work to go through two and three security passes just to go in and out of their rooms and out of their apartment. So, yeah, things are changing.

But, I believe there’s a good atmosphere. Some people then complain, say, oh, the place is in chaos, and he’s off visiting slums and going all over the place and talking to migrants, and he’s not sitting down at the desk and doing his work.

But, you know, two years I think the majority of people are much edified.

And I guess in the Catholic point of view is what you want from a bishop is not to be a great guy who shuffles papers around the desk, but somebody who, you know, talks to people, listens to them, tries to help them. I mean, I’m a pastor myself, an assistant pastor, so I know what it’s like. You get a great kick when you meet somebody who’s got a problem. Usually, they think the problem’s a lot bigger than you think.

And so often, if you just sit down–in Ireland, we have tea. So, we have a cup of tea and a cup of coffee maybe and talk and talk and talk. The next thing, the problems solved.

So, you really get a great kick, and I think that’s what Pope Francis is doing. He’s enjoying getting a kick out of his work.

Christopher Buck: He always seems to be full of joy when you see the pictures, when you see him talking and taking selfies with people.

Father Collins: Yes.

Christopher Buck: There is such a joy around him. With other Popes, you’d see them smile, but there was very much a formality.

Father Collins: Sure, totally, totally.

Christopher Buck: We’re such fans of this Pope.

Father Collins: Well, I must give you a laugh before we go. When I was working on the book, and Rodolfo Felici photograph, we had something like a half a million photographs to go through. So, there was a team of 12 in the–and the publisher is Dorling Kindersley in the UK. And none of them are Catholic, so I thought this was amusing. They loved the photographs.

And there was one girl, Renata, who’s got a photographic memory. She’s a fantastic girl. And we said, we’d like a photograph of Pope Francis in May 2013. She said, oh, yes, and she would give the details of the occasion.

But, all of these, they were all of various religions, and some were Episcopalian. And they just fell in love with the project, the book, so much so that the senior editor said to me when we’d finished, he said, you know, it’s funny, we do books–we write books all day every day for a living. We do travel books – you know, they produce fantastic coffee table books – which said this team has really fallen in love with this man. And I thought that was really the most fantastic tribute that Pope Francis could have, even though he’ll never know about it. I mean, I’m not going to tell him. But, you know, I thought that was really, really nice.

Christopher Buck: Well, I’m looking at one of the pre-release copies of the book even as we speak, and it is – the pictures, the everything – is just so magnificent, and you really can get a feel by looking through this of who the man is and, not only his great faith, but his humanity.

Father Collins: Yeah. And in fact, interestingly, the photographer, Rodolfo, said to me one day, he said – we were talking about photographs and he’s with him about six feet behind him at all his public events, etc. And he said, you know, it’s funny, when he’s at mass or celebrating liturgy, he’s very, and you know, composed and collected. But, he said, as soon as he takes off his vestments, goes back out to the people, he just comes back to life again.

He said–I think it was he who made this analogy – he’s like a flower pot that you’ve poured water into and suddenly springs back into life again. He really does seem to get energized by people. He really seems to enjoy listening. I mean, as Pope, I guess he doesn’t have too much time to listen to people, but he picks up the phone when people write him a letter. They’ve all started including their telephone number, on the off chance he will call. He does, and so much so that Crest Officer had to ask him to stop making these cold calls, because he said, first of all, a lot of pranksters are doing the same thing and phoning unsuspecting people and saying they’re the Pope.

So, Pope Francis stopped for about two months, and then, of course, he’s back to his old habits. So, he still does cold calling.

Christopher Buck: Father Collins, you’ve been most gracious with your time. We’ve run over quite a bit. But, I’ve got one last question that’s kind of fun. You know, in your time and as a church historian, what action or comment of Pope Francis is your favorite “Popeism”?

Father Collins: Oh, my gosh. Oh, wow. Okay. I think – that’s a hard one. There’s too many. But, one funny one I remember, on the first Sunday when he was elected, and he went to the local parish church to say mass, and when he walked in, he discovered that there were so many Argentinians there. And he said, I thought this was an Italian parish church. He said, don’t you guys worry. He said, you got in somehow. He said, I’m not surprised how the Argentinians got in. But, he said, you’re all Christians for the day. I thought that was really nice. I liked that one.

Christopher Buck: Oh, that’s fabulous. Father Collins, thank you so very much for graciously taking our questions today.

Father Collins: Thanks so much, Christopher. I really enjoyed that.

About the Photographer

Rodolfo Felici is a fifth-generation photographer at Fotografia Felici (www.fotografiafelici.com), the family-run photographic studio founded by Giuseppe Felici in Rome in 1863. A trained architect, he has worked as a photographer in the Vatican since 1999, together with his father, Giuseppe, and other members of the family. Fotografia Felici is one of two studios that shares the privilege of photographing Papal events in the Vatican. With a history of more than 150 years, it is one of the oldest remaining studios run by the same family.

Photographs from Rodolfo Felici reproduced by permission of DK, a division of Penguin Random House, from